2025-03-18 - Defining

Action Items for adding to Wholistic Empathy Definition Presentation

Agenda

Zoom - Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (03/18/2025) 


Quick recap 

Edwin and Jodie engaged in a comprehensive discussion on empathy, covering its definitions, measurement challenges, and philosophical perspectives. They explored the concept's application in various contexts, including psychology, autism research, and political divides, while also addressing potential pitfalls such as objectification and self-obsession. The conversation touched on personal experiences and collaborative projects, emphasizing the importance of mutual understanding and effective communication in fostering empathic relationships. 

Next steps 

• Jodie to email Garrett Cardin about potentially joining a future meeting with Edwin. 

• Edwin and Jodie to continue discussion about the philosophical aspects of empathy in their next meeting, focusing on the slide with outstanding questions. 

• Jodie to review Peter Seer's work on empathic leadership in sports. 

• Edwin and Jodie to reconvene next week to pick up the discussion on the final slide of Jodie's presentation. 


Summary 

AI Tools and Definitions Discussion 

Edwin and Jodie discussed the use of AI tools like Otter for documenting and summarizing meetings. They also reviewed Jodie's definitions slide and planned to discuss the philosophical differences in the definitions. Jodie mentioned her need to leave the meeting early to attend other meetings. Edwin also mentioned a new Saturday meeting he started, which had 3 attendees in the last session. He expressed his intention to make this a recurring project. 

Empathy: Clarifying Definitions and Importance 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the various interpretations and definitions of empathy, acknowledging the confusion it can cause. They agreed that different terms and concepts are often associated with empathy, and that understanding these nuances is crucial. They also touched on the importance of open dialogue and empathy in addressing differing opinions and ideas, emphasizing the need for effective communication and understanding. 

Collaboration With Garrett on Autism Projects 

Jodie and Edwin discussed their collaboration with Garrett Cardin, a neuroscientist at BYU, on autism and art projects. Jodie mentioned that they will start meeting regularly to work on projects, and she plans to invite Garrett to join their next meeting. Edwin suggested the possibility of an empathy circle with Garrett, which Jodie found interesting. They also briefly discussed Simon Baron Cohen's work on empathy and autism research at Cambridge. 

Inconsistent Empathy Measurement in Research 

Jodie discussed the issue of inconsistent measurement of empathy in research. She highlighted that researchers often choose scales that don't align with their own definition of empathy, leading to problematic results. Jodie also presented a study that found people who rated highly on the Interpersonal Reactivity Index used self-focused language in their social media posts. She suggested that this discrepancy could be due to a difference in the concept of empathy being studied versus the actual understanding of another person's perspective. 

Empathy: Balancing Self and Other 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy and its relation to the individual. Jodie expressed concerns about the focus on the individual in the term "einfuhlung," which she believes diminishes the other person.

 Edwin clarified that empathy involves sensing into the other person's experience, not just projecting one's emotions. They also discussed the importance of active listening and the role of boundaries in empathy. Jodie highlighted the potential for self-obsession in some interpretations of empathy, while Edwin emphasized that empathy is a quality of oneself that can enhance one's sense of self. 

Exploring Unmitigated Empathy in Psychology 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly in the context of psychology. They highlighted the issue of viewing empathy as an internal trait, rather than recognizing its impact on others. They also touched on the idea of self-sacrifice in empathy, which they deemed problematic and unhealthy. 

Jodie introduced the term "unmitigated communion" to describe a situation where one constantly gives without considering their own needs. They concluded by expressing interest in exploring the concept of "unmitigated empathy" further. 

Mutual Empathy in Relationships 

Edwin discussed his relationship with a woman who had been experiencing distress and manic phases. He provided her with emergency empathy for two and a half hours, during which she expressed a range of emotions, including criticism  of him. However, she refused to listen to him afterwards, leading to the end of their relationship unless they could establish a mutually empathic relationship through an empathy circle. Edwin also mentioned a similar situation with his brother, who had been working behind his back on a project. Edwin expressed his willingness to maintain a relationship based on mutual empathy and openness. 

Empathy's Limitations in Psychology and Therapy 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the importance of empathy and its limitations in psychology. They explored the philosophical perspectives of Buber, Levinas, and Boss, emphasizing the need to recognize the infinite and unknowable nature of human potential. They also touched upon the concept of I-thou relationships in therapy, as proposed by Rogers and Buber. The conversation concluded with a discussion on the objectification of people, with Edwin seeking clarification on what this might look like in an empathy circle. 

Objectification in Interpersonal Relationships 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of objectification in interpersonal relationships, particularly in conflict situations. Jodie emphasized the importance of recognizing individuals as the authors of their own stories and not labeling them as good or bad. Edwin raised the example of political differences and how they can lead to objectification. Jodie further explained that objectification can occur when people are viewed as either facilitators or obstacles to personal goals. They concluded that understanding and relating to individuals as complex, ungraspable beings is crucial for fostering empathy and deeper connections. 

Bridging Political and Personal Divides 

Jodie discussed her work on bridging political and personal divides, including facilitating an empathy circle with a group in early February. 

She shared an analogy of a hot air balloon ride, emphasizing the importance of communication with the ground crew and self-reflection. Jodie also raised questions about higher levels of empathy that respect the other person's perspective while considering their potential. Edwin suggested further discussion on these topics and shared a link to Peter Seer's work on empathic leadership in sports. 

Otter.AI
2025-03-18 - Tue Defining Empathy

Transcript

https://otter.ai/u/FUZfZCG4Ahm_hyLct6glEuua1pQ?view=transcript

Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson discussed organizing meeting documents on definingempathy.com, including AI transcripts and summaries. They reviewed Jodie's slides on empathy definitions, emphasizing the need for clear terminology to avoid confusion. Edwin shared his experience with an empathy circle and the importance of mutuality. They discussed the challenges of empathy in psychology, including the objectification of others and the need for a balanced approach. Jodie mentioned her collaboration with a neuroscientist on autism and art projects and her interest in exploring higher levels of empathy that respect individual perspectives and potential.

Action Items


Outline


Organizing Meeting Documents and AI Tools


Reviewing Definitions and Meeting Agenda


Discussion on Empathy Definitions and Terminology


Empathy Circle and Philosophical Perspectives


Challenges in Empathy Research and Practice


Applications of Empathy in Real-World Contexts


Philosophical Foundations of Empathy


Empathy in Sports and Leadership





what does Martin Buber mean by I-thou?

ChatGPT said:

Martin Buber's I-Thou concept, introduced in his 1923 book I and Thou (Ich und Du), describes a way of relating to others that is deeply personal, reciprocal, and genuine.

Key Aspects of I-Thou:

Contrast with I-It:

Examples of I-Thou Relationships:

Buber believed that the I-Thou relationship is essential for authentic human existence and that encountering others in this way leads to greater understanding and compassion.

Would you like an example of how this applies to empathy or empathy circles?


You said:

What would be examples of an I-thou relationship in an empathy circle?

ChatGPT said:

In an Empathy Circle, an I-Thou relationship emerges when participants engage with each other in a deeply present, open, and mutually respectful way. Here are some examples:

1. Deep Listening Without Judgment

A participant listens attentively to a speaker, fully present with their emotions and experiences, without trying to analyze, fix, or respond with advice. Instead of objectifying the speaker’s words (I-It), the listener recognizes them as a whole person, valuing their lived experience.

🔹 Example: A participant shares a personal struggle, and the listener reflects back their feelings and experiences with sincerity and care. The listener sees the speaker not just as someone to be understood but as a fellow human being deserving of presence and connection.


2. Mutual Recognition of Humanity

Each person in the circle recognizes the full humanity of the others, setting aside preconceived notions or personal biases. This creates a space where all voices are equally valued, regardless of background or opinion.

🔹 Example: Two people from opposing political perspectives engage in an Empathy Circle. Instead of debating or trying to "win," they truly hear each other, acknowledging the emotions and values behind each perspective. A moment of recognition and shared understanding occurs, even if they continue to disagree.

3. A Sacred Moment of Connection

There are moments in an Empathy Circle when a listener and speaker experience a profound connection—beyond words. The listener fully "gets" what the speaker is feeling, and the speaker feels deeply seen. This moment transcends the transactional nature of ordinary conversations.

🔹 Example: A participant speaks about a loss they experienced. As they share, the listener holds space for their grief, reflecting it back with warmth and presence. The speaker feels not just heard, but deeply understood on a human level.

4. The Experience of Being Fully Present

An I-Thou relationship arises when everyone in the Empathy Circle is truly present, not thinking ahead to their turn, not evaluating what others say, but simply being in the moment with one another.

🔹 Example: A facilitator maintains deep presence with each speaker, welcoming whatever arises with openness, whether it’s joy, sadness, anger, or uncertainty. The atmosphere of the circle shifts from structured turn-taking to a collective experience of mutual understanding.

Why This Matters in an Empathy Circle

Buber believed I-Thou encounters are transformative because they allow us to connect with others as whole beings, not as objects or roles. In an Empathy Circle, when participants engage with this depth of presence and respect, they foster a culture of genuine empathy, healing, and social connection.

Would you like ideas on how to cultivate more I-Thou moments in an Empathy Circle?

yes

Great! Here are some specific steps you can take to facilitate these practices and encourage I-Thou relationships in your Empathy Circle:

1. Starting with Intention and Presence

2. Using Reflective Listening

3. Fostering a Judgment-Free Space

4. Sharing from the Heart and Vulnerability

5. Encourage Mutual Understanding Over Agreement

6. Slowing Down the Pace

7. Create a Ritual of Connection

8. Keep the Focus on the Person, Not the Problem

9. Embrace Silence

10. Practice Radical Empathy

By incorporating these practices, you create an environment where I-Thou moments can naturally unfold. The Empathy Circle will become a place of profound connection, allowing people to feel truly seen, heard, and understood. Would you like more specific tips or exercises for a particular part of the circle?