2025-03-11 - Definition Project 

Otter.AI Transcript

https://otter.ai/u/Jbt0YA7k05PUxt6XOPoFjwr-q9Y?view=transcript

Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch discussed the challenges of conducting empathy research, including the complexity of empathy circles and the difficulty in recruiting participants. They explored the concept of holistic empathy, emphasizing its relational and mutual nature. Jodie shared her research on empathy, highlighting the importance of clear definitions and the potential flaws in existing scales like Davis's Interpersonal Reactivity Index. They also discussed the need for a balanced approach to empathy, avoiding both emotional reactivity and overly cognitive perspectives. The conversation concluded with plans to map various empathy definitions onto the holistic empathy model.

Action Items

• [ ] Explore using qualitative methods like interviews to incorporate the empathy circle framework into research.

• [ ] Interview William Ickes, an early researcher on empathy, to get advice on empathy studies.

• [ ] Review the slideshow presentation and map it onto the holistic empathy model.

• [ ] Potentially create a workshop or course to explore mapping different empathy definitions and criticisms onto the holistic empathy framework.

Outline

Empathy Research Lab Challenges

• Jodie Jenson discusses a failed empathy research lab at Green Bay, highlighting the complexity of the study design.

• Edwin Rutsch explains the study's structure, which included empathy circles with questionnaires between each speaker and listener.

• The study faced difficulties in recruiting participants and the principal investigator ran out of time, leading to its abandonment.

• Jodie Jenson expresses her struggle to incorporate the empathy circle framework into her research due to its complexity.
  
  

Qualitative Research and Empathy Circles

• Edwin Rutsch suggests that qualitative research within a context like families could be more manageable.

• Jodie Jenson mentions her interest in qualitative work, including recording and analyzing interactions.

• Edwin Rutsch recommends interviewing William Ickes, an early researcher on empathy, for advice on studies.

• Jodie Jenson acknowledges Ickes' name coming up in literature but is unsure of his pronunciation.

Holistic Empathy Framework

• Edwin Rutsch introduces the concept of holistic empathy, which includes direct, self, and imaginative empathy.

• Jodie Jenson agrees that the holistic empathy idea aligns well with her presentation, emphasizing the relational aspect of empathy.

• Edwin Rutsch explains the facets of holistic empathy, comparing it to a diamond with different components.

• Jodie Jenson appreciates the idea of mapping different types of interactions onto the empathy circle framework.

Restorative Empathy Circles

• Edwin Rutsch discusses the potential of restorative empathy circles in conflict mediation.

• Jodie Jenson suggests that the empathy circle framework can be applied to various contexts and frameworks.

• Edwin Rutsch proposes role-playing roadblocks and criticisms of empathy to create a workshop course.

• Jodie Jenson agrees and suggests starting with her presentation to map it onto the holistic empathy model.

Philosophical Underpinnings of Empathy

• Jodie Jenson explains her research project with a philosopher, focusing on the philosophical underpinnings of empathy.

• The project aims to address the obsession with the self in psychological literature and its impact on empathy.

• Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson discuss the premise of individualism versus community in empathy research.

• Jodie Jenson highlights the flaws in social psychology textbooks that focus on the self rather than the other.

Balancing Empathy and Individuality

• Jodie Jenson discusses the balance between self and other in empathy, emphasizing the importance of maintaining individuality.

• Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson explore the concept of polar positives, where virtues can become vices if taken to extremes.

• The discussion includes the dangers of group think and authoritarianism when individuality is sacrificed for the group.

• Edwin Rutsch emphasizes the inclusivity of the empathy circle, which brings everyone into the discussion.

Empathy Circle Practices

• Edwin Rutsch describes the empathy circle's role in conflict mediation, including stand-ins for absent participants.

• Jodie Jenson shares her experience of taking on the role of a Trump supporter in an AI interaction, highlighting the value of perspective-taking.

• The discussion includes the potential negative effects of empathy, such as losing oneself in another's world view.

• Edwin Rutsch suggests that mutual empathy in the empathy circle can help therapists avoid burnout and narcissism.

Reactive vs. Relational Empathy

• Jodie Jenson critiques the reactive process definition of empathy, which focuses on personal distress rather than empathy.

• Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson discuss the importance of maintaining a sense of self in empathy to avoid emotional overwhelm.

• The conversation includes the role of empathy in effective communication and understanding oneself better.

• Jodie Jenson emphasizes the need for empathy to be relational rather than one-sided to avoid burnout in helping professions.

Sympathy vs. Empathy

• Jodie Jenson explains the historical use of sympathy and empathy interchangeably and the dangers of using them synonymously today.

• Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson discuss the pitfalls of feeling bad for someone without understanding their perspective.

• The conversation includes the importance of empathic concern and compassion in empathy to prevent manipulation.

• Jodie Jenson highlights the dangers of assuming one's solutions are best for others, especially in international development work.

Mapping Empathy Definitions

• Edwin Rutsch suggests mapping various empathy definitions onto the holistic empathy model for better understanding.

• Jodie Jenson shares her excitement about the philosophical alignment of her research with Edwin Rutsch's approach.

• The discussion includes the importance of clear communication in interdisciplinary research to avoid semantic confusion.

• Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson agree on the need for a framework to model and understand different empathy definitions.

How can mapping your presentation onto the holistic empathy model help to better understand and communicate different definitions and facets of empathy?

Mapping the presentation onto the holistic empathy model can help in a few ways:

1. It allows you to see how different empathy definitions fit into the broader framework of holistic empathy, which includes direct, self, and imaginative empathy.

2. Applying the definitions to the model can reveal areas of overlap, divergence, and nuance between them, improving communication and understanding.

3. The process of mapping can uncover implicit assumptions or biases in how empathy is defined and measured, leading to more clarity.

4. It provides a structured way to explore how various empathy concepts, including criticisms, can be understood within a holistic perspective.

The key is that the mapping exercise facilitates a deeper, more comprehensive examination of empathy, rather than working with narrow or conflicting definitions in isolation.

Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (03/11/2025) 

Quick recap 

Jodie and Edwin discussed various aspects of empathy, including its definition, application in different fields, and its philosophical underpinnings. They explored the concept of holistic empathy, the importance of considering the community and reciprocity in relationships, and the potential dangers of merging individual identities with a group. They also discussed the concept of empathy in therapy, the nuances of empathy and sympathy, and the philosophy of empathy in psychology, with a focus on its various dimensions and how it can be measured. 

Next steps 

• Jodie to continue her research on empathy, incorporating insights from the holistic empathy model discussed with Edwin. 

• Edwin to develop more visual diagrams to model different aspects of empathy, including emotions and awareness in people's consciousness. 

• Jodie to share results of her upcoming study using the Interpersonal Reactivity Index scale, particularly focusing on the personal distress subscale. 

• Edwin and Jodie to continue their discussion on mapping various empathy definitions onto the holistic empathy model in future meetings. 

• Jodie to provide an update on her conversation with Daryl Cameron, particularly regarding empathic AI research. 

• Edwin and Jodie to explore creating a more sophisticated framework for visually representing different aspects of empathy. 

• Jodie to share more details about her "between" model of empathy in the next meeting. 

Summary 

Jodie's Study and Empathy Circle Discussion 

Edwin and Jodie discussed a study that Jodie had planned to conduct, but it fell through due to complications. Jodie considered incorporating the empathy circle framework into her research, but it would have made the study too complicated. Jodie decided to focus on qualitative work instead. Edwin suggested that Jodie could conduct a study with families using the empathy circle and analyze the qualitative report on the experience. He also mentioned a researcher named William Ickes, who had conducted early research on empathy and might be willing to provide advice. Jodie agreed to look into Ickes' work. 

Holistic Empathy and Relationship Mapping 

Edwin and Jodie discussed the concept of holistic empathy, which Jodie found to align well with her presentation. They agreed that empathy should be viewed as a quality of the relationship rather than a unidirectional process. They also discussed the idea of mapping different definitions of empathy onto the empathy circle. Jodie suggested that this approach could be applied to other contexts and frameworks. They planned to go through each of the roadblocks and criticisms of empathy in a future workshop course. 

Empathy's Philosophical Underpinnings and Interpersonal Impact 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the philosophical underpinnings of empathy, focusing on the psychological obsession with the self and its impact on interpersonal interactions. They highlighted the need to shift from a self-centered approach to a more holistic understanding of empathy, emphasizing the importance of considering the community and reciprocity in relationships. They also touched on the potential dangers of merging individual identities with a group, such as the loss of autonomy and the risk of authoritarianism or cult-like behavior. 

Empathy: Definition and Application Discussion 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly its definition and its application in various fields. They highlighted the importance of understanding the different perspectives on empathy, including the emotional contagion definition and the more nuanced definition used in research. They also touched on the limitations of Davis's Interpersonal Reactivity Index, which they believe does not accurately measure empathy. The discussion ended with a suggestion to revisit the first definition in relation to holistic empathy. 

Exploring Empathy: Reason, Emotion, and Role-Playing 

Edwin and Jodie discussed the concept of empathy, particularly focusing on imaginative empathy. They agreed that empathy is not solely an emotional experience, but also involves reasoning and perspective-taking. They also explored the idea of role-playing and acting as a form of empathy, where one can imagine being someone else and feel their emotions. They concluded that empathy is a complex and multifaceted concept that cannot be reduced to a simple dichotomy between reason and emotion. 

Jodie's AI Empathy and Balance 

Jodie discussed her experience with AI, where she took on the role of a Trump supporter to understand their perspective. She found it unsettling but also valuable for empathy. Jodie also mentioned the concept of polar positives, where virtues and vices are balanced, using courage and patience as examples. She emphasized the importance of maintaining balance in empathy to ensure one's health and sense of self. 

Empathy in Therapy and Burnout 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly in the context of therapy. They agreed that empathy should be a two-way relationship, not just a one-sided listening experience. They also discussed the potential for burnout in therapists due to the lack of mutual empathy. Edwin suggested that empathy circles could be a solution, allowing individuals to express their feelings and receive empathy from others. They also discussed the importance of maintaining boundaries and emotional intelligence in empathy. The conversation ended with Jodie sharing an example of how empathy helped her reflect on her own communication. 

Empathy and Effective Communication 

Edwin and Jodie discuss the concept of empathy and its various components. They explore the importance of effective communication, where the message sent matches the message received. Jodie emphasizes the need for reflecting back what's been heard to ensure effective communication. Edwin explains the difference between empathy and emotional reactivity in the context of an empathy circle, highlighting that empathy involves maintaining presence without bringing forward personal reactions. They also discuss Davis's empathy scale, which includes subscales for perspective-taking and empathic concern, with Jodie noting that empathic concern is essential to prevent manipulation. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the subtle but important distinction between sensing another's emotions and being overwhelmed by them in the context of empathy. 

Exploring Empathy and Sympathy Definitions 

In the meeting, Jodie and Edwin discussed the nuances of empathy and sympathy, particularly in the context of ancient Greek and modern usage. They agreed that using these terms interchangeably could be dangerous, as it might lead to assuming one's own solutions are universally applicable. They also touched on the importance of understanding different perspectives and cultures, using examples from international development work. The conversation concluded with plans to continue exploring the definitions and applications of empathy in future meetings. 

Empathy in Psychology and AI 

Jodie and Edwin discussed the philosophy of empathy and its application in psychology. They agreed that a more proper understanding of empathy could address criticisms and improve communication between scientists from different disciplines. They also acknowledged the potential for semantic confusion in interdisciplinary research, particularly within psychology. Jodie mentioned a conversation with Daryl Cameron and Paul Bloom, who agreed on the promising components of empathic AI while also expressing caution. The conversation ended with the idea that people on opposite sides of a debate can find common ground and work together. 

Exploring Dimensions of Empathy in Relationships 

In the meeting, Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly focusing on its various dimensions and how it can be measured. They referred to a study where participants were asked to identify and feel emotions, and how this relates to empathy. They also discussed the idea of empathy as a reactive process or a sympathy process, and how these perspectives can impact the quality of the relationship and interaction. Jodie introduced a new version of empathy that is bidirectional and relationship-oriented, which they plan to explore further in the next meeting. 

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