https://otter.ai/u/-r4nTs8ELGLJwycPd5jshommabI?view=transcript
Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch discuss the concept of empathy, emphasizing the importance of a holistic approach that balances self-awareness with understanding others. They explore the historical shifts in empathy definitions, from early projections of feelings to modern perspectives on sensing into others' experiences. Jodie plans to conduct research on the effectiveness of empathy circles, comparing different approaches to empathy in facilitating dialogue and understanding. Edwin shares his experiences using empathy circles in diverse settings, highlighting their potential to foster mutual understanding and reduce conflict.
They also consider the practical application of empathy circles in academic and public contexts. Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch discuss scheduling regular meetings every Tuesday at 10 o'clock to continue their research conversations, with the possibility of rescheduling if necessary. Edwin mentions recording the meetings and using Otter AI for documentation.
Jodie finds the meetings inspiring and beneficial, especially as a grad student with less time commitments than others. Edwin plans to introduce Jodie to Anita Novak, who also has a PhD in empathy, and suggests coordinating their meetings for mutual benefit. They also discuss connecting with Mimi Nicklin, another empathy speaker. Edwin agrees to send Jodie the meeting recordings and transcriptions.
[ ] Schedule a weekly empathy discussion circle on Tuesdays at 10am PT
[ ] Reach out to Anita Novak, who has a PhD in empathy, to see if she can join the discussion
[ ] Connect with Jodie on LinkedIn and share the recording/transcript of this meeting
[ ] Follow up with Daryl Cameron to try to schedule a 20-minute conversation about Jodie's research questions
Jodie Jenson shares a story from Nuremberg, Germany about a wealthy man who challenges a goldsmith to make a cup that two people can drink from simultaneously.
The goldsmith succeeds by creating a cup with a bottom that turns upside down and a top that swivels, symbolizing unity.
Jodie relates this story to her personal struggle with the philosophy of empathy, debating whether to suppress oneself or prioritize one's own perspective.
She had a dream about a cup with a divider, which led her to realize that empathy should bring both perspectives together, benefiting both parties.
Edwin Rutsch suggests using the empathy circle to facilitate their conversation, explaining the active listening process.
Edwin reflects back Jodie's points, summarizing the two camps of thought on empathy: giving oneself up versus being grounded in oneself.
Jodie agrees with Edwin's reflection and discusses the importance of bringing one's empathy forward in relationships.
They explore the concept of active listening and how it can help in understanding and being heard.
Jodie expresses difficulty in finding her own words after fully engaging in listening to others, feeling lost when it's her turn to speak.
Edwin acknowledges this challenge and shares his own experience of feeling emptiness after deep listening.
They discuss the importance of being honest about one's mental state during empathy circles.
Jodie reflects on the balance between giving oneself up and bringing one's empathy forward in relationships.
Jodie discusses her background in international development and her frustration with the individualistic approach in psychology research.
She highlights the lack of understanding and valuing of the other person in psychological studies, leading to a misinterpretation of empathy.
Edwin agrees, noting that psychology is often oriented towards the individual, neglecting the relational aspect of empathy.
They discuss the need for a clear definition of holistic empathy to address these issues.
Edwin explains the empathy circle as a minimal viable structure for fostering relational empathy, allowing free speech and reflection.
Jodie appreciates the practicality of the empathy circle in addressing polarized issues and improving relationships.
They discuss the potential of the empathy circle in research settings, comparing different approaches to empathy and its impact on relationships.
Edwin shares his experience of using the empathy circle in various settings, including politically polarized discussions and family conflicts.
Jodie plans to design an experiment to study the empathy circle in a psychology lab, comparing different approaches to empathy.
They discuss the need for training and facilitation in the first empathy circle sessions to ensure participants follow the practice.
Edwin shares his experience of using the empathy circle in politically charged settings, such as pro-life and pro-choice discussions.
They explore the potential of the empathy circle in addressing issues like toxic empathy and selective empathy in relationships.
Jodie and Edwin discuss the various definitions of empathy, including emotional contagion, perspective taking, and cognitive awareness.
They highlight the need for a clear definition of holistic empathy to avoid misunderstandings and criticisms.
Edwin shares his definition of empathy as sensing into another person's experience, differentiating it from projection and role-playing.
They discuss the historical shifts in the definition of empathy and the importance of a relational view in understanding it.
Edwin explains how the empathy circle can be used as a training tool to improve self-regulation and communication in relationships.
Jodie appreciates the simplicity and effectiveness of the empathy circle in addressing relational issues.
They discuss the potential of the empathy circle in various settings, including family dynamics and professional conflicts.
Edwin shares his experience of using the empathy circle in his family, noting the long-term impact on their relationships.
Jodie plans to reach out to academic colleagues who might be interested in participating in empathy circles.
They discuss the challenges of finding colleagues who have a holistic view of empathy and the potential benefits of academic discussions.
Edwin suggests reaching out to researchers who are working on related topics, such as emotional intelligence and moral intelligence.
They explore the possibility of organizing focus groups and discussion groups to further explore the concept of empathy.
Jodie plans to design an experiment to study the impact of the empathy circle on relationships and communication.
They discuss the need for empirical research to validate the effectiveness of the empathy circle.
Edwin offers to help with the research, providing insights and facilitation for the empathy circles.
They explore the potential of the empathy circle in addressing issues like loneliness, personal support, and stakeholder engagement.
Edwin shares his experience of using the empathy circle in public settings, such as political rallies and demonstrations.
They discuss the potential of the empathy circle in addressing polarized issues and promoting understanding.
Jodie appreciates the practical application of the empathy circle in real-world settings.
They explore the possibility of using the empathy circle in educational settings to improve communication and empathy among students.
Jodie Jenson suggests scheduling a meeting every Tuesday at 10 o'clock to continue their research conversations.
Edwin Rutsch agrees and mentions that they will record the meetings for documentation.
Jodie finds the meetings inspiring and reinvigorating, especially when she feels bogged down in her research.
Edwin notes the timing of their meeting is perfect as it aligns with his current work on the same subject.
Edwin mentions he has a meeting with Anita Novak at 12, who has a PhD in empathy and is doing significant work in the field.
Jodie expresses familiarity with Anita's name but doesn't remember her.
Edwin offers to introduce Jodie to Anita and suggests they could meet at the same time if their topics overlap.
Jodie agrees, seeing mutual benefits in coordinating their meetings.
Jodie mentions another empathy speaker, Mimi Nicklin, and asks if Edwin knows her.
Edwin confirms he has interacted with Mimi in empathy summits and finds her work impressive.
Jodie shares that she follows Mimi on LinkedIn but hasn't had extensive conversations with her yet.
Edwin plans to connect Jodie with Mimi and other relevant contacts in their field.
Jodie requests Edwin to send her the recording and AI transcription of their meetings.
Edwin agrees to send her a link to the document containing the transcription.
They confirm their next meeting and express mutual appreciation for the collaboration.
The meeting concludes with Edwin thanking Jodie and confirming the follow-up steps.
Zoom: Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (01/28/2025)
Quick recap
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, its application in personal and professional lives, and its various interpretations. They explored the idea of an 'empathy circle' as a tool for enhancing communication and understanding, and considered the potential for research on empathy circles and their impact. They also discussed the evolution of empathy, the potential involvement of renowned researchers in their project, and the feasibility of involving busy researchers in their research.
Next steps
• Design and conduct an experiment comparing different empathy approaches, including the empathy circle method.
• Set up weekly empathy discussion circles and invite interested researchers/academics.
• Reach out to the researcher working on the "3 queue" approach to see if she would be interested in joining an empathy circle.
• Contact the philosopher at Brigham Young University to gauge interest in participating in an empathy circle.
• Meet with Susan Lanzoni next month to discuss her book proposal on empathy.
• Continue working on refining and articulating holistic empathy definitions.
• Send Jodie the recording and AI transcription of their conversation.
• Connect with Anita Novak on LinkedIn.
• Meet again next Tuesday at 10 AM to continue discussions on empathy research.
Summary
Navigating Empathy in Personal and Professional Life
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy and its application in their personal and professional lives. Jodie shared her struggle with the idea of empathy, questioning whether it requires suppressing oneself to fully understand another person or recognizing that empathy is subjective and personal. Edwin suggested that empathy is not about giving oneself up, but rather about actively choosing to bring one's empathetic part forward in a relationship. They also discussed the challenges of maintaining focus during active listening, with Jodie expressing difficulty in articulating her thoughts after fully engaging with the speaker. Edwin recommended acknowledging the emptiness that can arise from intense listening and allowing time for the speaker to share their thoughts. They concluded by emphasizing the importance of turn-taking in empathy circles to balance the need for self-expression and understanding.
Unmitigated Communion and Empathy in Psychology
Jodie discusses the issue of one-sided empathy and introduces the unmitigated communion scale, which measures people's tendency to give excessively to their own detriment. She points out that psychology research often focuses on the self rather than considering the other person in relationships, leading to a misunderstanding of empathy. Jodie shares her experience in international development work, contrasting her approach of supporting people's goals with others who imposed solutions, and explains how this perspective influenced her views on helping behavior in psychology research.
Reevaluating Empathy in Relationships
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, focusing on its definition and application in various contexts. They agreed that empathy has been primarily defined in an individualistic manner, which they believe is problematic. Edwin proposed a holistic approach to empathy, emphasizing the importance of empathy in relationships rather than just individual experiences. They also discussed how different books, such as "Against Empathy" and "The Dark Side of Empathy," criticize empathy from a perspective that Edwin believes is actually a lack of empathy. Jodie expressed her excitement at finding someone who shares her perspective on empathy, as she feels there are few people who view it from a relational lens.
Exploring Empathy and Role-Playing Perspectives
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy and its various interpretations. Jodie expressed frustration with the debates surrounding empathy's definition and suggested that it should be studied in the context of real-life situations. They agreed that empathy is a real phenomenon that can be experienced and should be defined individually. They also discussed the idea of role-playing different perspectives in an "empathy circle" to better understand each other's experiences. Jodie proposed designing an experiment to study the effects of an empathy circle on politically polarized individuals. Edwin suggested that the first time people participate in an empathy circle, they should have a facilitator to guide the practice. They also discussed the potential of using empathy circles in polarizing settings to foster deeper connections and understanding.
Empathy Circles Research and Collaboration
In the meeting, Jodie and Edwin discussed the potential for research on empathy circles and their impact. Edwin expressed excitement about the prospect of studying the comparison between different groups and the outcomes. They also discussed a documentary featuring the empathy tent being taken to public places during Trump's election. Jodie mentioned her focus groups and a potential academic collaborator who is interested in integrating intelligence, emotional intelligence, and moral intelligence. They also discussed the possibility of involving a philosopher in their research. Towards the end, they discussed the idea of a weekly empathy circle and a potential presentation at a conference in May.
Evolution and Definitions of Empathy
Jodie and Edwin discussed the evolution of empathy and its various definitions. They noted that the concept of empathy has shifted significantly over time, from attributing emotions to objects in the early 19th century to feeling with another person in the 20th century. They also differentiated between sensing into another person's experience and role-playing as that person. Edwin suggested that the term empathy has been hijacked in many ways and proposed the need for a different word to accurately describe the phenomenon. They also touched on the idea of cognitive empathy, which involves understanding the cognitive processes of another person.
Empathy Circle: Enhancing Communication and Understanding
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy and its application in their personal and professional lives. They explored the idea of an 'empathy circle' as a tool for enhancing communication and understanding. Edwin shared his experience with the empathy circle in his family and during a political rally, highlighting its effectiveness in resolving conflicts and promoting empathy. Jodie agreed with the simplicity and effectiveness of the empathy circle, suggesting it could be a valuable tool for addressing relational issues. The conversation concluded with a powerful example of the empathy circle's impact in a real-life situation.
Empathy Research and Potential Collaborations
Jodie and Edwin discussed their research on empathy and the potential involvement of renowned researchers in their project. Jodie mentioned reaching out to Darryl Cameron and Jamil Zaki, with a possible meeting with Darryl in the coming month. They also discussed the feasibility of involving busy researchers in their project. Jodie expressed her desire to continue the conversations and agreed to a weekly meeting every Tuesday at 10 o'clock, which would be recorded for documentation. They also discussed the possibility of inviting Anita Novak, a researcher with a PhD in empathy, to their meetings. Jodie also mentioned connecting with Mimi Nicklin, another empathy speaker.
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Notes from a previous meeting.. perhaps meeting 1
Exploring Empathy: Jodie Jenson & Edwin Rutsch on Wholistic Understanding
Empathy is more than a buzzword; it’s a dynamic process that shapes how we connect, communicate, and build relationships. On January 28, Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch delved deep into the evolving definitions of empathy, the power of active listening, and the role of empathy circles in fostering mutual understanding.
Historically, empathy has been defined in various ways—from early ideas of emotional projection to today’s understanding of perspective-taking. Jodie and Edwin explored this evolution, emphasizing the need for a holistic view that integrates both self-awareness and an appreciation of others’ experiences. Jodie, currently conducting research on empathy, is particularly interested in comparing different approaches, including empathy circles, to assess their effectiveness in facilitating meaningful dialogue.
Edwin has extensive experience using empathy circles across different contexts, including politically charged discussions and family conflicts. The process involves active listening, reflection, and structured turn-taking, ensuring that all voices are heard. Jodie sees the potential of integrating this practice into academic research, comparing its impact with other empathy-building methods.
One of the challenges Jodie highlighted is the difficulty of maintaining one’s own voice while deeply listening to others. The conversation touched on how empathy is often misunderstood as self-sacrifice rather than an active engagement that benefits both parties. Jodie shared a powerful metaphor from Nuremberg—a goldsmith who crafted a shared drinking cup that symbolized unity. This story mirrors her realization that empathy should be a bridge, not a surrender of self.
Jodie and Edwin have committed to ongoing research conversations every Tuesday at 10 AM PT. They plan to:
✅ Design an experiment comparing empathy circle methods with other approaches.
✅ Connect with leading empathy researchers, including Anita Novak and Mimi Nicklin.
✅ Explore the role of empathy in academic settings and public discourse.
✅ Examine the impact of empathy circles on resolving conflicts and strengthening relationships.
Empathy is not just an abstract concept—it’s a skill we can cultivate. If you’re interested in participating in empathy circles or contributing to this research, reach out! Let’s continue exploring how holistic empathy can transform our interactions and communities.
#Empathy #ActiveListening #Leadership #Research #EmpathyCircles